How do you know if your business needs a patent, a trademark, or a copyright? Or maybe you’ve just wondered what the differences between patents, trademarks, and copyrights happen to be and why they are important. If you have found yourself asking these questions before then this episode is for you.
ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Our guest today, is Devin Miller. He is the Founder, Managing Partner, and CEO of Miller IP Law, a business that helps start-ups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks. Devin’s previous clients include Amazon, Intel, Redhat, and Ford and he has previously been featured on other podcasts including Bigger Pockets Podcast and Wealth Junkies.
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LINKS FROM THE EPISODE:
- Schedule your FREE strategy meeting at: https://www.strategymeeting.com
- Learn more about Devin’s company and intellectual property services: https://milleripl.com/
- Check out Devin’s podcast called “The Inventive Journey Podcast: https://milleripl.com/blogs/inventive-journey
- If you are ready to franchise your business or take it to the next level: CLICK HERE.
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TRANSCRIPTION:
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (00:00):
Welcome to the Multiply Your Success Podcast, where each week we help growth minded entrepreneurs and franchise leaders take the next step in their expansion journey. I’m your host, Tom DuFore, CEO of Big Sky Franchise Team. And the question to open this week is, how do you know if your business needs a patent, a trademark or a copyright, or maybe you’ve just wondered what the differences between patents, trademarks and copyrights happen to be, and why are they important? Why do they even matter? And if you found yourself asking any of these questions before, then this episode is for you. Our guest today is Devin Miller and he’s the Founder, Managing Partner and CEO of Miller IP Law, a business that helps startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks. Devin’s previous clients include Amazon, Intel, Red Hat, and Ford, and he’s previously been featured on other podcasts, including Bigger Pockets Podcast and Wealth Junkies. So let’s go ahead and jump right into my interview with Devin Miller.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (01:00):
Yeah. So name is Devin Miller and I am the CEO Founder of Miller IP Law, where we help startups and small businesses with patents, trademarks, and other intellectual property and business related matters.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (01:13):
Excellent. Well, thank you for being here. And one of the reasons I was excited to have you on the show is because we share a similar customer and client base. I’ve worked predominantly with small to midsize businesses that are growth minded and growth oriented, and we help companies franchise our business. And so at some point in time, inevitably, a trademark discussion is going to come up and typically, patents discussion will start to come up. So I’d love to talk a little bit about each of those and how the process works. So the trademark is kind of the low hanging fruit that I think most of our clients are going to be really interested in understanding, but would you mind giving a nice overview on what that is and what that looks like?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (01:57):
Yeah. And probably what would be helpful, is just giving overview of the umbrella in general and what each of them are.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (02:01):
Yeah.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (02:02):
Because sometimes you have people say, “Hey, I’ve got a great brand or a great logo, I need to go get a patent on it.” Or vice versa, those type of things.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (02:09):
Perfect. Yeah.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (02:10):
And I think it’s one where it’s oftentimes easy to get them mixed up. So with that, so there’s an umbrella term, which is a term that has multiple terms underneath it, which is intellectual property. So in general, intellectual property includes patents, trademarks, copyrights. So somebody says intellectual property, they can be referring to one or all of the above. Within that, what are patents, trademarks, and copyrights? So if you were to think of patents, patents are really anything that’s for an invention and it does something, it has a functionality, it has a utility, that’s going to be under patents and you use patents to protect it.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (02:42):
Trademarks are going to be for brands. So anything that’s on the branding side, a name of a company, name of a product, a logo, a catchphrase, those type of things are all going to fall under trademarks. And copyrights are going to be more on the creative side. So if you’re to think of a picture, a photo, a sculpture, a painting, a book, a video, all of those things are going to be under copyrights, so anything on the creative side. So just as you’re looking at those and trying to delineate what do I need, or what should I be thinking about? Those are the different areas and sometimes you have one, you have two, you have all three, or you have none of them, but those are what you should be looking at as to what is your business? What are you looking to protect? And then which category do I fall under?
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (03:24):
Oh, okay, great. And in helping someone determine, if we went through each of those categories then, that was a great overview, thank you. How would you then start working with a person that’s maybe saying, “Well, should I copyright this or should I trademark or patent this?” Will you walk through that process a little?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (03:49):
Yeah. Absolutely. And it’s usually a two pronged approach, which is, “Hey, if you had unlimited budgets.” Which very few, if any startups or small businesses or even medium sized businesses have unlimited budgets, or if you have a budget, you still want to be conscience of the cost. And so sure, if you add unlimited budgets, I’d say, “Go do all three because it does have a return. It gives you a added layer of protection.” But in reality, we all work within budgets. And usually if you’re a startup or small business, you have more things to spend money on than money to spend. And so it’s a matter of now, let’s triage it or let’s put it in order of priority. And so every business is different and every business has different value and I think that’s where you typically start at.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (04:25):
So if you’re looking at your business and you’re saying, “What is the core value of our business?” In other words, what is a thing that drives the money, drives the value and what makes our business unique and successful? And for some businesses that is, “Hey, have a great product. I mean, we are really innovative. We create new and different unique products, or we’re working on the next best iPhone that’s going to just revolutionize the industry or we’re working on this great widget.” In that case, if you’re saying that’s the core of our business, that’s what we focus on, we’re a technology or innovative company, then you should be looking to protect those via patents and then again, put that as an asset.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (05:01):
On the other hand, you may say, “No, we really don’t invent anything, but we are really good at branding. We can do better SEO than everybody else. We have a better reputation, better customer service. We have the ability to get out and do great sales.” Then you’re really building a brand and then you may be saying, “Well, we really need to focus primarily on trademarks.” On the other hand, you’re saying, “No, I’m an author. I’m writing the next best Tom Clancy or Harry Potter.” Or whatever book that might be, choose your genre. Then you’re saying, “That’s where your value is.” And really, you’re going to want to focus on the copyright. So the first thing that we typically do, is sit down and say, “What is the value of your company? Where is that core value that you really want to protect? Let’s start with that, make sure that the core is protected and then as time, money and ability allows, then you can branch out and you continue to further that protection and continue to invest in those assets.”
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (05:51):
I see. Okay. Excellent. Excellent. And so then, when you are working with your clients and going through it, I like how you have a very straightforward and direct, on your website, information that that’s come across, is very straightforward. It’s very direct and very, what I think is small business friendly. So as someone that’s coming into this and is new, maybe for the first time, they have to really start thinking about this. A lot of our clients are that mom and pop operator that have now, they’re past that mom and pop stage, they’re really successful. And now they’re saying, “Wow, I might be looking at a regional or a national expansion and my franchise consultant that I just hired, told me I need to get a trademark filed.” So what does that look like? How do you work with clients, when we walk through that trademarking process?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (06:43):
Yeah. So first thing is, after we have that conversation, to your point, say, “Okay, the core value of what our businesses is.” And a lot of franchises, especially if you’re in the service based industry, is going to be on the brand. That’s what you’re selling, that’s your reputation. What makes McDonald’s so valuable, they have a very strong brand, whether or not you like to eat McDonald’s food, we won’t go down that path. Some people love it, some people think it’s not their favorite, but yet they have a strong brand that everybody recognizes. And so to your point, you say, “Okay, now the core value is our trademark. Well then, what do we need to know?” Well, one of the first things is, I would always recommend, and I know it’s a bit of a biased answer, but sit down with an attorney and actually walk through what you’re doing, because they’re going to give you some tailored advice, more specific to your business.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (07:23):
Us and I know other attorneys do it. We’ll do a free strategy meeting, where you’ll sit down and you’ll talk through what is your business? I’ll give the shameless plug that if they want to grab some time with me, they can go to strategymeeting.com and grab some time. But whether it’s with me or with anybody else, grab that time. Now the other things you consider and say, “Hey, that’s great. I’ll go talk with the attorney in a minute but I want to know a little bit before I dive into what I’m looking at.” So there’s a couple different trademarks or types of trademarks you should consider, as far as what you want to protect.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (07:54):
So one is called a word mark, the other one’s called a design mark. And a word mark sounds like it is, which is, it is for protecting of the word. So I always like to use an example of Nike. So Nike has a word mark for Nike, if you want to use the word Nike, they own it. They also have the Nike swoosh, which is a design. It’s a design mark because it’s not the word, it’s something that has an aesthetic nature, a look and feel to it. So you think the Nike swoosh, you think the Apple logo, you think the Starbucks mermaid, you think whichever one it is, those are all design marks. And so each of those are two separate things that you can protect. Now, the question is oftentimes, “Well, which one should I protect?”
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (08:30):
And again, if you have the bandwidth in the budget, I would protect both. But if you’re saying, “I don’t have the budget and I’m just trying to start out and get some protection.” My general recommendation is, go for the word mark, because it’s generally broader. In other words, it’s stopping others from using those words, but there are exceptions. Let’s say within your business, your core is really, “Hey, you have a great logo.” But that’s what people see and they see that kind of catchy or unique looking logo, that’s what they associate with your brand, then that’s where your core is and then you go and protect the logo first. So first is, to realize that there’s a couple different types of trademarks.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (09:05):
And then I’ll walk through a little bit of the process, so once you get some of that basic understanding. The other thing, the way trademarks work, is you have to indicate the products or the services you’re going to be using for the trademark. So I’ll go back to Nike as an example. Nike has a trademark for Nike and it is for athletic wear, sports gear, apparel, so they sell what they do. They don’t have restaurants. So theoretically, now I don’t know that I’d recommend it, but theoretically, you can go and you can start a Nike restaurant because it is different than all the products they all offer. Now, Nike is famous enough, they’ll probably come after you and sue you anyway, but theoretically, you could do it.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (09:40):
And so when you file your trademarks, it’s not that you can stop anybody from using this word in any circumstance, it’s for your types of products and your services that you’re using it for. So that’s kind of the base knowledge, have that bit in mind. Now, once you have that in mind, you’ll go in and sit down with an attorney and they’ll walk you through a lot of what I just said. What are you wanting to protect, is it the word, is it the logo, is it both? And then they’ll go through the pricing structure. The pricing structure, it can vary a bit, but it’s typically something along the lines of, there is a cost to prepare a trademark application and then for each of those categories, each of those classes that you’re going to file your trademark in, you have to pay an additional governmental fee.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (10:20):
So as an example for us, if you were to do a trademark application with one class or one category. So if you’re Nike, you’re all in one category, you have athletic wear, sports gear and apparel, that’s all one category, it’d be $850. Let’s say you were Nike and you said, “We’re going to do athletic wear, sports gear and apparel, we’re also going to go do spaceships.” And I’m just making it up. So that’s another category, you have to pay an additional fee. So for us, it’s an additional $450 for that second category and you have to pay for each of those categories because the government wants you to pay for each of those categories. So generally, you’ll go, you’ll sit down with an attorney, figure out which one you want, what the cost is going to be. Then the attorney will typically recommend those categories or classes to consider, draft up an application, you approve it, then you file it.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (11:08):
So that’s all the process just to get the trademark application filed. The next thing that will happen, is you file it with the government, you sit in a queue for about 6 months. Government puts you in the queue and says, “When you get to the top, we’ll take a look at it. And we’ve got all these in line before you.” The government slow with just about everything and including with trademarks and so it takes about 6 months to get to the top of the queue. And then they’re going to look at it for primarily one standard, which is, “Is it confusingly similar with anybody else that’s out there?”
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (11:36):
And what does that mean? That means, if you wanted to go start your athletic wear, sports gear and apparel company, and the name of your company was spelled N-I-K-E-E, so you add an extra E. Guess what? You’re going to get a rejection because most consumers when they think they seeing Nikee with two E’s and Nike with one E, they’re probably going to think it’s the same company or very similar, or has a relation. So the trademark office is going to say, “Look, this is confusingly similar with what’s already out there and we’re going to reject it.” Or they’re going to say, “Looks good. No issues with what’s already out there.” And they’ll allow it. You get a rejection, you get an opportunity to respond and say, “Examiner, you’re wrong. That’s Nike with one E and everybody knows Nike with two E is completely different.” I don’t think that’s going to work, but you’d make those type of an arguments.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (12:23):
Or you going to say, “Hey, Nike does athletic wear, sports gear and apparel, they do spaceships. We’re doing a restaurant. We’re completely different. Nobody thinks that Nike is going to open up a restaurant.” So you have an opportunity to go back and forth, either convince the examiner that it’s going to be allowable, trademarkable or they’re going to say, “Nope, abandon all hope. It’s just not a worthwhile to pursue.” So that in a much condensed nutshell, is the process of going through the trademarks from A to Z.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (12:48):
Yeah. And as you described, it can be very lengthy. Right? I mean, you said it’s just 6 months in the queue, just to get to an examiner. And just for a sake of a rough ballpark range, what could the time look like once you reach that 6 month marker then?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (13:04):
Yeah. Usually, if you go straight through the process, you don’t get any rejections and it’s a fairly seamless, they’re saying, “No likelihood for confusion, no issues, looks like you’re perfect.” Then it’s you usually around 7 months or so to get through the process. If you’re getting some where there’s some rejection, you’re having to respond back to the examiner, I would say usually average about 50% of the time you get straight through, 50% of the time you’re having to address some of the concerns with the examiner. You’re usually more like nine to 11 months, if you having to address some concerns. So some are between that 7 to 11 month mark is generally to get through that full process.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (13:39):
Oh, okay. All right. That’s very helpful. Thank you. And I’d love if you have time here, to share with us a little bit about how the patent process works? I get asked a lot about patents, it’s something I know very little about. But every once in a while, we’ll have clients that are curious, “Should I patent this process or patent this or that?” And I’d love for you to talk a little bit about the process and how that all works?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (14:07):
Yeah. So what I’ll probably do is back it up just a little bit, because a lot of the questions and the ones before that is, “Should I get a patent? Is what I doing patentable?” In other words, that’s really the heart of the question. It’s less, “Should I get a patent?” Well, yeah, if you have something that’s valuable and patentable, then you should probably go get a patent, but does it meet those standards of those criteria? So when you get to patents, there are three standards for patentability. We’ll just walk through those quickly, and what they’re basically called is, novelty, obviousness and abstraction. Novelty basically means, has anybody else previously invented this? If somebody else has already invented it, guess what? You can’t get a patent on something that’s already invented. You’re not the first inventor, sorry, but you don’t meet that criteria.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (14:48):
So the second standard is obviousness. And obviousness basically means, “Well, not one person has invented it, but if you were to take two or more things around the marketplace, you’re going to put them together, that’s basically what you’ve done. And you’re really not adding anything new, you’re just putting a couple things that are already out there together in an obvious way that doesn’t add anything unique or new.” And again, if you’re obvious, you can’t get a patent. And then the third standard is what’s called abstraction. And so abstraction basically means, and it’s usually more to do with software, sometimes to do with a methods type or processes. But what you’re not able to do is, do something that people have traditionally done in their head, on pen and paper and all you’re doing is going and sticking it on a computer or on a smartphone and calling it new.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (15:34):
So to give you the easy example. Let’s say, everybody knows how to do, two plus two equals four. You learn it in school, you memorized it. You can do it in your head, or you can do it on pen and paper, it’s easy. Right? Let’s say you’re the first person think, “Well, I should go put this on a phone.” Guess what? You can’t go get a patent on having the phone to do, two plus two equals four, because everybody’s already done it in their head, done it on a pen and paper, doesn’t meet that criteria. So now, that doesn’t mean you can’t get a software patent. We do software patents all the time and usually, that criteria is, there’s typically a lot more behind that.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (16:05):
So a lot of times, if you’re doing data analytics, you’re doing a notifications, you’re doing alarms, you’re doing inputs and outputs. You’re doing recommendations. You’re managing data. All of those things are not just something you do on your head or on pen of paper, but there’s a lot more to it. So that’s where you kind of have to look. So the first thing is, are you novel, are you not obvious, and are you not abstract? If you meet those three criteria, then you can at least say, “Okay, I’ve got a reasonable shot at getting your patent or I at least, appear that I meet those criteria.” Not that you’re ever going to know perfectly. You’re never going to know for 100% absolutely that nobody else has ever invented this, or it’s not an obvious combination. But at least you should have that initial, “Hey, do I think I have a reasonable shot at that?”
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (16:49):
Now once you do that, same thing, go talk to an attorney, they’ll walk you through the process. Basically, what you’re having to do in a nutshell is, you’ll work with an attorney to get the description of all of your invention. And they’re going to go into much more detail than you’re ever going to want to know, than you ever thought. Usually, because a lot of times people come out of my office and say, “Oh, this is a simple invention. I can write it up on one page.” And then I’ll say, “Well, let’s walk through it. How do you use the product? How do you manufacture the product? What are the different components of it? How do all the different components go together? Are there certain ways that you can do it? Are there certain ways you can’t do it? What are the pictures? What are the figures? How do we describe it?”
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (17:24):
And by the end, it’s usually more like a 20 plus page document and it’s not a one pager. And so it is a much more detailed process but the reason is, is you’re trying to describe your invention in enough detail that somebody else in the industry would be able to understand it and be able to replicate it. That’s kind of the level of detail you’re wanting and usually you can’t do that on a page. No matter how smart or simply you think it is, one page isn’t going to do it. But now you get into all the details and you work through it there with an attorney, you get all the details, they’ll get it pulled together, you get it filed. Then you get a wait in the queue. And you thought that 6 months to get to top the trademark queue is long, patents are much more backlogged. It’s usually about 12 to 18 months before you get to the top of the queue.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (18:04):
You get to the top of the queue, very similar to trademarks. They’re going to go through it, they’re going to say, “Do you meet these three standards, novelty, obviousness, abstraction? If you meet the standards. Great, issued paten.” If you don’t meet the standards, they’re going to give a rejection and they’re going to say, “Nope, you don’t meet this, either you’re not novel, you’re not obvious, you’re not abstract.” And then you get an opportunity to go back and forth and argue with the examiner. You can clarify, maybe you start out really broad. You’re saying, “We cover a lot of ground.” And then when you find out what else is out there, you have to narrow it, you don’t have as much ground.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (18:34):
So in a real estate example, say you own 10 acres, in reality, you own 1 acre. So you have to say, “No, okay. I don’t really own those 10 acres, I own this 1 acre.” So you go back and forth with the examiner and in the process they’ll just say, “Yep, patented. It’s good. You convince us it’s patentability.” Or at some point, you’re going to say, “Well, we’ve gone back and forth with the examiner, it looks like we’re not making any progress. And we’re just going to let it go abandoned and otherwise not pursue it anymore.” So a much more complicated process but if you’re going to take that, try and put it in a nutshell, that’s as good as I could do to try summarize it.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (19:07):
Well, that was great. Clearly, there was a lot involved with process and you summarized it extremely well and very concise. So thank you for that. Well, let’s just continue down the pathway here. Let’s jump into the copyright conversation. I’d love for you to walk that?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (19:28):
Yeah. So copyright, I think I like copyrights because they’re the simplest, so that makes it easy. So we went from middle difficulty, which is trademarks then we jump to the most difficult, now we get to wrap up with the easiest. So copyrights are generally, there aren’t a lot of standards for copyrights which is typically good. But the main thing is, is that you are the original creator. In other words, you can’t go take someone else’s picture or someone else’s book or sculpture and say, “Well, I’m going to be the first. It doesn’t look like they’ve copyrighted it. I’m just going to go copyright it before them.” No, you have to be the original creator, the person that came up with it. And as long as you’ve done that, the only other standard is, you have to put it in a tangible medium.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (20:03):
What does that mean? Can’t be up in your head. You have a picture, go take the picture. You’re doing a sculpture, you have to actually make the sculpture. If you’re writing a book, you have to actually write the book. You can’t say, “Well, I’m going to write a book about this. I haven’t written it yet, but I want to copyright it before I write the book.” It doesn’t work that way. You have to actually make it before you copyright it. Once you do that, similar, you sit down with attorney, they’d get some basic information. What is the copyright? Is it a book? Is it the sculpture? Is it a painting? Get us the material, either the picture of the sculpture, get us a picture of the painting, get us a transcript of the book or whatever that might be and then you file it.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (20:40):
Most of the time when you file it, unless you mess something up on the filing, it’s just going to get copyrighted. There is very little to no examination, other than to make sure you fill out the paperwork right. And then it actually goes to the Library of Congress. So they just basically put it in a digital format at the Library of Congress, it gets cataloged there and you don’t do a lot more with it. It usually takes 3 to 4 months to get it all the way through the process and most of that is just waiting for them to process it, get it in the Library of Congress and away you go.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (21:13):
So those ones are pretty simple. The only other question that sometimes will pop up is, “Hey, what if I have multiple things I want to copyright? What if I come up with caricatures for my kids toys and we have five different types of kids toys, that all have different caricatures, or a cartoon or a video or whatever that might be. Do I have to do it each individually as it’s own copyright, or can I do it as one?” The general answer is, you can do it as one, but you don’t always want to, and I’ll walk you through that. So on a cost perspective, certainly when you do it as one, you have to pay less and you get it all done at the same time.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (21:49):
The main reason why you’d want to sometimes split it out and do multiple copyrights, is let’s say you want to go license it or you want to go sell one, so almost in the franchising, but let’s say you have some great content and you’re saying, “Hey, we have this content over here. Here’s the viral video. We also have these characters or these cartoons that are the caricatures for the franchise that we use for branding purposes. And we also have some great copyrighted material, that is written up material that tells our story.” You could technically, probably throw them all the same one, but a lot of times, you’re going to want to separate them out so that that viral video, you can license, sell or utilize, separate from the content you created.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (22:28):
A lot of times, you have to look and see, does it make sense to try and pack it all in or do I want to maintain the ability to separate those out and otherwise franchise license it and do other agreements with each of them separately? But that’s usually copyrights. They’re the easiest. They’re usually the least expensive. Usually copyrights are a few hundred dollars. Trademarks are upwards of around $800 to $1,000. Patents are usually around $6,000 to $9,000, depending on if you go to the East Coast or you go to non East Coast.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (22:58):
Oh, okay, great. Well, that was a phenomenal overview on each of those and the application to it. So you’ve given a great summary. So anyone that’s tuning in here, that’s going to listen in, as you’re thinking about your own business, how that applies. Devin, it sounds like your firm offers a free strategy session, which sounds like a great opportunity for folks to dial into. What was the website again for that?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (23:26):
Yeah. And we call it a strategy meeting and I’ll give you the reason why, because the website is strategymeeting.com.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (23:31):
Oh, yeah.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (23:32):
So, the two second side. So I actually wanted to do a strategy session when I started out and I went and looked on it, they wanted exorbitant amount, it was $15,000, $20,000 for that URL. I’m like, “Well, I don’t really want to spend $15,000 to $20,000.” So I’m like, “What’s another way to say strategy session? Well, it’s really just a meeting. Let’s see if strategy meeting is open?” Went and bought that for 20 bucks on GoDaddy. So because of that, yeah, the short answer to that longest side was, we offer a 15, 20 minute free consults or strategy meetings, where we sit down, talk through a little bit more specific about your business.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (24:08):
We answer your questions, give you some ideas, some directions, what costs you might be considering, what deadlines you might be aware of. It’s not going to all your legal work. It’s not going to answer all of your questions, but it gives you that direction and get you started. And to do that, just go to strategymeeting.com, and that links right to my calendar, it’s an easy way to connect up with me, easy to grab some time with me. If it’s there, it’s on my calendar, you’re more than welcome to grab that time.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (24:35):
Great. Great. Thank you. And one of the things I liked about, prior to the interview here, that I like about what you do, you’ve got very transparent public pricing available for folks to see services, it’s easy to engage and talk to and so you know exactly what to expect going in.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (24:53):
Yeah, absolutely. And that, as we almost started the interview was, is we’re set up for startups and small businesses. Now we have a few larger clients that we also work with, but really, when I founded the firm about three years ago, I love working with startups and small businesses. Not only in my law firm, I’ve also done a lot of startups and small businesses. And so I set it up to say, “What are some of the things that make it difficult for startups, small business, even medium sized business, a lot of times, to get into this?” And was one is, everybody feels like they have no idea what this is going to cost them. They just get a blank check that they turn over to the attorney. They do some time, magically it gets done, and then they get a bill that’s always more than they expected.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (25:32):
And so one of the things we did is say, “Hey, let’s put a lot more transparency in the prices.” We work almost exclusively on flat fees. So flat fees include our fees, attorney time, governmental fees, everything you need to get something filed. And so that’s one thing that we do. The other thing that you didn’t mention that definitely we also try and be helpful, is we also put it on a lot of times, payment plans. And so we were saying, “Hey, you got two options to pay for it. You need to do that up front, if you have the budget or you can also split it up into four payments over four months.”
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (26:03):
So a lot of times it makes it easy, say, “Hey, this is a good investment, but we can’t do it all up front. We have to budget in with everything else we have going on.” And so you can also do the payment plan. So we have a lot of those type of things, where we do flat fees. We do payment plans. We have a ton of content. We do strategy meetings and we do all of those, really to help startups and small businesses, so that they can get going and then it makes it an easier process for them.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (26:25):
Excellent. Excellent. Well, Devin, this a great time for us to make the transition. So before every guest goes, we ask the same four questions. And so the first question we’d like to ask every guest is, throughout your career, have you had a miss or two along the way and something you learned from it?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (26:44):
Yeah. And I thought about that and I don’t know if I have a pure miss in that sense. Now, there are plenty of ideas that I think that would be fun to still pursue, but I never have enough time, money, and effort to do every idea that I have. But that probably the biggest miss was, and it’s what I hear a lot. What I would call a miss is, I hear a lot from other startups and I have the same feeling is, is I wish I got started earlier with doing my own business. In other words, I looked at the opportunity, first of all, I love it, I enjoy it. It’s what I’m passionate about, it makes it more fun.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (27:12):
But I’m now about 10 years into my career, for about 6 and a half or 7 years of that time, I was working for other people. And while I got a lot of experience, they were great bosses, great employers, I was always missing that, “Hey, if I got started 5 years earlier, or 4 years earlier, how much farther would I be along? What would I be doing more?” And so my miss is more of, I wish I’d started earlier on the business as I’m doing now because I love it and I’m passionate about it and it just makes for a lot more fun time.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (27:40):
Oh, I love it. I love it. Well, how about a make or two that you could share with us?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (27:46):
Yeah. So the make, I’ll go back to one. I mentioned, I’ve done several startups and small businesses in addition to the law firm. So I basically have two passions. I love the law side of intellectual property, I also love startups and small businesses. So that’s been my whole career where I’ve kind of pursued both of them. And the make that I would probably say is, so the very first business that I ever did was while I was doing my dual degree, doing the law degree, as well as the MBA degree. And to paint the picture, at the time I was doing the law degree, I was in the MBA degree. I had a two year old, we just had a newborn. I was working 20 hours as a law clerk and then I also decided that I wanted to do a business competition, which was, why not, just add one more thing?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (28:25):
And so I was in a business competition. I joined three other people. It’s kind of one of those where you get into those meetings, you don’t know anybody, you form a group and the way you go. So I met a few other people. We formed our group and entered the competition. First year, I don’t know if it was a stupid idea, it was never going to go anywhere, which is it was, made gym bag’s less smelly, which is a fun idea. It never had any business opportunity to it. But the second year we got together and we were brainstorming. And one of the ideas that I came up with that we stuck with, was to do what was a watch or wearables for hydration monitoring. So you think of athletes, you think of military uses, you think of elderly care, all of these. And this was well before the days of Fitbits and iWatches or anything else.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (29:06):
And so that was the business I started, entered it in the competition and then at the end, we took second place, which is still bittersweet, because I think we should have taken first. But then I bought out the competitor or I bought out not the competitors, the partners in the business with other people who are part of the team and continued to pursue that. Long story short, is that business is still going, it’s evolved into just now, we’re doing much more in the diabetes monitoring system, which utilizes a lot of the same technology. It’s now a bigger business. I’ve stepped back. I’m not as day to day managing, but I still have and participate in the business. And that was one that was probably one that I was busy, I could have made excuses, but I did it while I was doing everything else. And it’s been a fun time and it’s been a great business to continue to develop.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (29:49):
Oh, that’s amazing. What a fun story and certainly great for your clients and working with small business and startups, that you’re in that same bucket, you’ve been there and through it, in addition your firm, but other businesses you’re involved with, I love it.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (30:05):
Absolutely.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (30:06):
Well, how about a multiplier? We ask, have you used a multiplier as you’ve grown professionally and personally?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (30:14):
Yeah. So probably I would give a couple or I’ll jump on one. I was going to give a couple, but I’ll narrow it down to one, which is that, the multiplier that we use with a lot of my businesses is automation. Now automation has a bad name and rightly so, because there’s a lot of times where it’s done really horrible. And in my mind, when I think of automation done poorly, it’s that, “Hey, I call customer service. There’s a phone tree where I have to dial this number and then I dial this number and then I dial this number. Then I get to the wrong person, then they transfer me and I got disconnected. And then I got to start all over again. Or it’s the chat bot on the bottom of a website that isn’t really a person and I keep trying to get help and it keeps giving me these articles that really don’t solve by problem.” Those are all terrible automations that don’t work.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (30:55):
But what we do is a lot, more in the background automation. So a lot of the things that we are doing on a repetitive basis, routine basis, that we’re saying, “Hey, we have to do to client follow-ups. We have to do reporting things out. We want to make sure things they’re taken care of, but we do those on a routine basis. And there’s a lot of things that we can automate that allows us to scale, it allows us to reduce the amount of errors. It reduces our costs, but it also allows us to multiply our business and provide better service, more service to other people and reduce our costs.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (31:21):
And so it’s really allowed us to multiply our business by automating the things that can and should be automated, but also freeing up time so we can really have the one-on-one direct customer interaction. In other words, we do a strategy meetings, I talk with everybody one-on-one. If I was having to do all the things that we’d automated, there’d be no time left in the day and so it’s really allowed us to multiply and to grow, where we otherwise couldn’t.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (31:44):
That’s great. Well, and by the way, if you want to share another one, we’re open to it, if you want to share a second?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (31:51):
All right, I’ll go with a second. I want to be sensitive to other people’s time and I don’t want to make the podcast run over. But I’d love to share, which is, another one that I love is social listening. Now, social listening, I don’t mean it by the context. So the normal, if you go Google, social listening, it is one where basically, you go and monitor your brand online. In other words, you monitor and see what other people are saying about your brand. What other comments and things that are being posted. That’s not what I mean by social listening. What we do is a bit different, is we listen for people that are looking online for recommendations. In other words, they’re putting it out on LinkedIn or Facebook or other social media. They’re saying, “Hey, I need a recommendation. Does anybody know if somebody needs help here? Does anybody know?”
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (32:33):
Now we’re a little bit more sophisticated in how we do it, but we listen for those people that are asking for those recommendations, they’re already high intent, they’re looking to get into this. And it would apply to the same thing with franchise. “Anybody know a good franchise? Anybody know anybody that’s looking for this? Anybody know how to do a trademark?” And it’s one of those that if you listen, there are a lot of people that are looking for recommendations, looking for guidance and if you listen for those, they can make it so that you can grow your business a lot quicker because you’re addressing people and you’re helping people out that are in need of it.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (33:02):
Excellent. I love it. I love that. Well, the final question we’d like to ask every guest is, what does success mean to you?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (33:13):
Yeah. I mean, certainly I think to a degree, everybody defines success by money and I’m sure I’m not an exception. I don’t want to be poor, nobody wants to be poor. Everybody likes to have a comfortable lifestyle. Now, what does that mean? Comfortable can mean a lot of things to different people. So I mean, some people that means I have to have millions of dollars. Other people, this means, I want to be able to pay my bills. So for me, it’s one, I have a comfortable lifestyle that I can support my family, support their needs, make sure everybody’s taken care of, and that we’re not living paycheck to paycheck. So that’s one thing with success.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (33:43):
But probably, the bigger thing with success is, at least for business, now, success to me means I have a good family. I’m there for my kids, I’m a good husband, I’m a good father, so I’m taking that a bit off the table since I’m focusing more in business success. But if I were to say, what is my true success, it has nothing to do with business and everything to do with family. With thin business or for success, the other thing is really that I have the ability to pursue the things that I want to pursue. In other words, I’m able to direct the business.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (34:12):
I answer to me, myself and I. I’m able to implement, if I have a crazy idea that I want to go try out, I don’t have to run it through committee after committee. I don’t have to get permission. We can try it out today, see if it works and if not, it bombs and we move on or we can try it. So it’s a bit of that freedom to direct my career and the course of my life and not be reliant on a boss or someone else that’s going to be directing it for me. So financial success, be comfortable enough that I can live my life, but more or so, have the freedom to be able to direct the business as I desire to. If I can do those two things, I’m successful in business. If I can be a good husband and father, I have a successful life.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (34:52):
Oh, fantastic. Well, and as we bring this to a conclusion, is there anything you were hoping to maybe get across or share that you haven’t had a chance to yet?
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (35:00):
Yeah. I mean, we’re already kind of wrapping it up and we haven’t touched on this much, the thing that I would probably hit on is, in a business, I think the best thing you can do is have a course of action, you can have a game plan. Now I fully understand that that game plan at some point, is going to go out the window, it’s going to change, it’s going to adjust, it’s going to pivot. And very seldom does a business, how it starts out, is not where it ends up. So the business plan is not to say, “Here’s our rigid plan and we have to stick to it.” But one, it allows you milestones that you have to hit to be successful. In other words, “Hey, do we really need a patent or a trademark in order to be successful? Do we need to have so much sales or so many customers in order to hit quantity of sales, that we can actually be profitable?”
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (35:40):
In other words, have those milestones and those in place, so that you know what those milestones are and then you can pivot and adjust around those as you need to, to make the business successful. And the other thing that the plan does, is it allows you to convince yourself that this is going to be a hard journey. No business is going to be easy. It’s not like the movies or the books or the television shows. It’s not the overnight success. You have a good idea and then all of a sudden, tomorrow you wake up a millionaire.
Devin Miller, Miller IP Law (36:04):
It’s 10 years in the making. Overnight successes are 10 years in the making. You have to get the experience. You have to do the work, you have to get in the sales. You have to build the team. You have to fail, you have to pick yourself back up, all of those. And so that plan in place convinces you that while you’re going through all these things, then it’s a worthwhile endeavor and it makes sense to continue to push through because you’ve already convinced yourself that this will in the end, be worth it. So get that plan in place, realize it’s going to change, but it’s still worth having.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (36:30):
Devin, thank you so much for a fantastic interview. And let’s go ahead and jump into today’s three key takeaways. So take away number one is, when Devin was talking about questions to ask yourself to help identify if you need to protect intellectual assets or intellectual property in your business. And he said, ask yourself, what is it that makes your business different? And then he followed up by asking, are you innovative? Are you a branding or marketing company? Are you creating things? And if you answer yes, to any one of those or multiple of those about, if one of these makes your business different, then you probably should consider taking advantage of Devin’s free consultation or talking with an intellectual property attorney.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (37:21):
Takeaway number two is, how he gave a really clear, concise description of a patent trademark and copyright. And he said, a patent is anything that is an invention, or has utility. A trademark is a brand, a logo or a catch phrase. And a copyright is something like a picture, a sculpture, a book, or a video. And I thought that was a really concise way to be able to clarify the difference. Takeaway number three is, when Devin talked about a multiplier he used or uses, and he uses social listening as a way to identify perspective customers for his business. And maybe that’s something you could do for your business. And he said, how he uses social listening, is he listens in these Facebook groups or LinkedIn groups and is listening for people, for his business in particular, that might be searching for a trademark referral or recommendation, or maybe for a patent attorney referral or recommendation. And so maybe that’s something you could apply to your business. How could you use that strategy and maybe finding a new place to find customers.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (38:32):
And now it’s time for today’s win-win. So today’s win-win is that intellectual property protects your business and business assets. And it’s important for you to review what intellectual property assets your business might have that should get a trademark, copyright, patent, oriented around. And that by protecting these intellectual assets that you have, it will help your business to maintain a competitive advantage, number one. And number two, having these intellectual property assets will help you in being able to expand your business through franchising and giving your franchisees something to help them protect their business and help differentiate their business. It will help to protect your brand, any technology, systems, tools, things that you’re creating. It will help protect that locally, regionally, nationally, as you start to expand your company.
Tom DuFore, Big Sky Franchise Team (39:40):
And all of that in turn, will provide for a greater value in your business as a whole, when you’re ready to sell or ready to exit. Whenever that might be, whether it’s selling the business or at some point, passing that down to the next generation. And so that’s the episode today folks. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast and give us a review. And remember, if you or anyone you know, might be ready to franchise their business or take their franchise company to the next level, please connect with us at bigskyfranchiseteam.com. Thanks for tuning in and we look forward to having you back next week.
