What do you do when you have a conflict at your company? How do you handle that difficult conversation? Or should I ask, do you handle it? Our guest today is Daniel Tocchini, and he is a leadership and culture expert, and he shares with us some best practices for having those difficult conversations.
TODAY’S WIN-WIN:
Have difficult conversations as soon as you are able.
LINKS FROM THE EPISODE:
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- Connect with our guest on social:
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dan_tocchini
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dantocchini/
ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Dan Tocchini has been helping leaders bring some more magic onto their teams for over 35 years. He has worked with executive teams from Interstate Batteries and ESPN, to Smarty Pants Vitamins and Impulse Space, as well as with non-profits like Homeboy Industries and Defy Ventures. Dan gives a no-fluff approach by helping transform leadership teams without any pixie dust – just courageous leadership, creative conflict resolution, and relevant restructuring. No conversation is too difficult, no situation too conflicted because a leader with a vision cannot be held hostage by circumstance or history.
ABOUT BIG SKY FRANCHISE TEAM:
This episode is powered by Big Sky Franchise Team. If you are ready to talk about franchising your business you can schedule your free, no-obligation, franchise consultation online at: https://bigskyfranchiseteam.com/.
The information provided in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and should not be considered financial, legal, or professional advice. Always consult with a qualified professional before making any business decisions. The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the host, Big Sky Franchise Team, or our affiliates. Additionally, this podcast may feature sponsors or advertisers, but any mention of products or services does not constitute an endorsement. Please do your own research before making any purchasing or business decisions.
TRANSCRIPT:
Dr. Tom DuFore (00:01):
Welcome to the Multiply Your Success podcast where each week we help growth-minded entrepreneurs and franchise leaders take the next step in their expansion journey.
(00:10):
I’m your host Tom DuFore, CEO of Big Sky Franchise Team, and as we open today, I’m wondering what you do when you have a conflict at your company, and how do you handle that conflict, and have that difficult conversation, or dare I ask do you have that difficult conversation?
(00:31):
Well, our guest today is Dan Tocchini, and he shares with us some best practices for having those difficult conversations. Now Dan has been helping leaders bring some magic onto their teams for over 35 years.
(00:44):
He’s worked with executive teams from Interstate Batteries and ESPN to SmartyPants Vitamins and Impulse Space as well as nonprofits like Homeboy Industries and Defy Ventures.
(00:55):
Dan gives a no fluff approach by helping transform leadership teams without any pixie dust, just courageous leadership, creative conflict resolution, and relevant restructuring.
(01:05):
No conversation is too difficult, no situation too conflict, because a leader with a vision cannot be held hostage by circumstance, or history. I think that’s a great, great bio and intro on Dan.
(01:17):
You’re going to love this interview as he shares some insights onto these difficult conversations. So, let’s go ahead and jump right into it.
Dan Tocchini (01:27):
[Foreign language 00:01:27]. I’m Dan Tocchini, and I am a founder and partner, senior partner at Take New Ground Partners, Take New Ground. It’s a consultancy. We do a lot of work with mergers, acquisitions, turnarounds. We don’t do a lot of one-offs. Although, we’ve done some one-offs, like, “Hey. Let’s do a team meeting,” that kind of thing.
(01:48):
What we’re hired to do is come in and handle them, work with a team in resolving a problem. And we scope it, we work with a team to strategize it, and then we stay with a team, usually two, or three of our principal partners are on the ground with them, and we work through it until the end, until we get that thing solved.
Dr. Tom DuFore (02:07):
Pre-show, we were talking about this idea of conflict being the yellow brick road to success. And that’s a talking point you have, and it really stood out to me. So, I like this. You have these problems that you’re helping to address with your customers and clients that you serve. So, why is conflict the yellow brick road to success?
Dan Tocchini (02:26):
Yeah. I’ve been around for a while. I’m sure it shows. I’ve got some wear and tear. I’ve found that what you don’t face will eventually defeat you. So, if I look at some of the deals that we’ve done, some of the turnarounds that we’ve done, or some of the implementations that we’ve done, an organization might not be prepared for what they want to do, and a leadership team, a board, et cetera.
(02:52):
I can usually tell, because they’re avoiding difficult issues. They’re creating workarounds. They’re compromising their mission, mission weak, or they’re restricting it, or they’re afraid of losing something. So, they don’t want to deal with it. They think if they put it off, eventually, it will resolve itself.
(03:11):
And what usually happens is it gets worse, and it costs a lot more. You pay now, or you pay later with penalties and interest.
Dr. Tom DuFore (03:19):
I know this is a little self-serving comment, but at the same time, it’s the same thing we tell our clients when they go through the franchise process, “You can hire a quality organization like us to help you out, and help keep your road to getting there more narrow, and, yeah, you have to pay a little bit more now, but it’s going to be way less expensive than what you bump into”-
Dan Tocchini (03:38):
In the long run.
Dr. Tom DuFore (03:39):
… “In the long run.” That’s exactly right.
Dan Tocchini (03:41):
And I’ve paid that price myself a number of times where, yeah, I just haven’t been willing to deal with certain issues, or I didn’t want to really focus enough on what was wanted and needed to have the necessary conversations to reveal where the resources were, or weren’t. That’s what I mean. So, better to find out early, if you can. [inaudible 00:04:00] I’m not saying you just go blundering into it. So, there’s some nuances to this.
(04:06):
But, obviously, people get stuck. I know I have multiple times. And it could be stuck on a good thing. Like, things could be taking off, and you’re rolling, and then something comes up and you’re afraid it’s going to deteriorate, or stop the momentum, when, in fact, that if you slow down and handle it, they may take it exponentially to the next level.
(04:27):
And at the very least, it’s going to solidify your foundation.
Dr. Tom DuFore (04:32):
I really appreciate what you’re sharing, and getting back to this conflict, the yellow brick road to success, and I understand what you said there. I’d love for you to maybe dig into some nuances of that.
(04:44):
For someone who tunes in and says, “Okay. Dan, well, I get that, but if I have to address this with,” and I’m sure you’ve heard these, “I’ve got a key employee,” or, “I’ve got some staff decisions I have to make,” a lot of times, I would imagine it’s human resource-related with people, and staff, and relationships, especially, in small businesses, or maybe having to no longer invest in a new business opportunity, or something.
(05:08):
So, what have you seen maybe be some challenges, or the resistors, why maybe some of your clients have a hard time with it, or some best practices you’ve found in starting to implement some of these types of ideas?
Dan Tocchini (05:22):
I think the number one thing I listen for when I sit with a client is I’m listening … Or one of my own team members, it doesn’t matter. And we’re working together to accomplish something.
(05:34):
And what I’m listening … When I hear in myself, or in anybody else, a complaint, particularly, a chronic complaint, I know that there’s some possibility there. Right?
(05:48):
Because why do you complain. You complain because you want something that you don’t have, and it’s usually something bigger, it’s the next level, it’s what’s wanted and needed to get to the next level, to have something happen, or to resolve something, any one of those.
(06:07):
And you don’t think it’s going to happen, and you’re afraid to take the risk. You may not even know how to approach it, or open it up. So, you complain about it.
(06:17):
And what happens is, what I’ve noticed is when people start to complain about something, they begin to pull back from what’s wanted and needed, and they settle for whatever they can get, and there’s a sense of, if you will, disappointment, or they start to lose some of the passion of the love of what they’re doing. They start to wane from their fascination.
(06:43):
A complaint is an indicator that somebody is distracted, because they don’t think they can get what they want. And fascination, to me, is the true mother of innovation. If somebody is fascinated, even if it’s a problem, the more you get fascinated with it, the closer you get to it, the more resource you’ll start to break down.
(07:05):
But if you don’t think you can get that resolved, then you won’t want to get close to it. Right? And so, there’s a tension there, and it’s very subtle. You can pick it up, because you’ll find yourself complaining to your partner, or to your manager, or somebody, or you’ll hear them complaining, and you’re both agreeing, because you’re both afraid, that if you did it, somehow you might lose something you have now.
(07:29):
And that’s usually the beginning. That’s where the possibility is, because there’s some conflict, or potential conflict, some potential upset that people are afraid to engage, because they don’t think they can get to the other side of it.
Dr. Tom DuFore (07:44):
I find that fascinating. It’s interesting. I love that you used that word, to find something fascinating. Right? To be intrigued and really pursue that. I’ve shared this before on other interviews, but the podcast for me has always been just a quest of why I always love to interview …
(08:00):
This has just been a personal quest. I love learning all of these new things-
Dan Tocchini (08:00):
Yeah.
Dr. Tom DuFore (08:03):
… and in taking from so many people who have so many experiences, I only have one lifetime that I get to live, but if I can learn little pieces from everyone else, and get a chance to share that with others, a nugget of info here or there, that could be meaningful.
Dan Tocchini (08:18):
Tony Robbins, yeah, I really enjoy his podcasts, I enjoy whatever he does, but I remember listening to him back in the ’80s, man. He was interviewing all these successful people for that reason. He was interested, and he would get really detailed, and you could tell … I always got a lot out of whatever he did, but same type of thing. I know I enjoy it too. I love getting on a plane, get connected to somebody, and you get into how they got successful and what they had to navigate, it’s really revealing and valuable, at least, it has been for me.
Dr. Tom DuFore (08:49):
Okay. So, now we’ve got this complaining going on. It’s generally probably for most of the people tuning in, it’s the owner, it’s the leader of the organization, there’s something going on, and they’re griping to their wife, or their husband, or their … Something’s going on. Right? A key manager.
(09:05):
Now they’re at this point, and they can either keep complaining, and they go along with it, I’m thinking in my head, “I’ve got this thing that’s going on right now. How do I start to make a transition to stop just complaining, and now start doing something?”
Dan Tocchini (09:21):
Well, okay. Good question. [inaudible 00:09:23] naturally go, but, yeah. This is more of a self-confession. The things I do with others, I’ve had to face in myself. Right?
(09:30):
And I get very acquainted with them, because the earlier you can catch it, the greater the advance, the quicker it goes, and the less the price is.
(09:40):
But, yeah. So, here, you have this complaint. Now most people don’t like what I’m going to talk about. So, if you’re listening, brace your ears, because every time I talk to an entrepreneur, or a partner, or whatever, we start to get into it, particularly, in a young partner who is just coming onboard, the only way to break through that, the best way to break through that is, one, you got to ask yourself, “What do I get from this complaint?”
(10:03):
And the way to get to that is to notice what your behavior is when the complaint comes up. Like, do you shut down? Do you pull back? Do you attack? Whatever it is, you’ll notice there’s a pattern that repeats itself, that makes you right about staying in the complaint.
(10:21):
And if you can know what that is, if you can start to see that, you can see what you’re getting out of it. Like, for instance, if you’re a big producer on my team, but, let’s say, you’re not a team player, and you’re actually upsetting the support team, or maybe you’re in sales, and you’re really good, but you treat the support team poorly, you don’t like doing followup, or whatever it is that you do, and I’m afraid to talk to you about it, the first thing I’ve got to do is … And I don’t. I just let you get away with things, and others see that, they’re going to start talking like, “Well, Bob’s my favorite.” Whatever that is, “He’s Dan’s favorite. He’s not going to mess with the golden goose who lays the eggs.”
(11:03):
So, I’ve got to come to terms with what I get out of that, and, obviously, I get you continuing to produce, which is probably the payoff, and I also get the relief from any discomfort that I might have to face with you, et cetera. There’s a number of payoffs.
(11:19):
But what I’ve got to do is sit down and ask myself, “What’s the long-term impact? What is going to happen? If I continue doing this, what’s the parade of horribles I’m going to be dealing with?” Probably more turnover on the team, there’s going to be complaints, people are going to think the way to get by is what you’re doing, and if they start to produce, they may silo themselves.
(11:41):
It becomes a quagmire of multiple related issues that fall off of it, and if I stop and look at that, my motivation for having the conversation will come up.
(11:54):
So, I’ve got to see what the future is going to look like if I don’t correct it. But I spend a lot of time … Because a lot of people will go, “Well, we’ve got to talk vision.” Definitely you’ve got to have a vision. And you also have to understand the price you pay if you’re not really true to that vision, if you’re not in touch with the holistic nature of that vision, you’re going to end up … It’s going to be a lot more expensive than you thought.
(12:20):
So, better to get in touch with that early than late, and that’s the first thing. Because leadership begins with self-leadership, with managing myself. Then if I can manage myself, I’ll be able to create a narrative that can invite you into it. So, we can talk about what we’re really doing here, because if you’re not willing to get bigger than just what you’re doing, then you’re really, ultimately, going to be undermining the process with the team.
(12:48):
That’s a delicate, but it’s a very subtle and important conversation. There’s ways to prepare for that. I have all kinds of frameworks, but you got to identify it first.
Dr. Tom DuFore (12:59):
I actually was going to ask how you might prepare for a difficult conversation, and there might be different preparation depending on what you’re doing, but can you talk through a few of those?
Dan Tocchini (13:07):
Absolutely. First off, you got to be able, number one, to be clear about … And what I do is I sit down, “What do I want ultimately? What is the big win if I could get it out of this conversation? What will it look like … If I really succeed, what does it look like on the other side?” And I describe it.
(13:26):
Number two, what’s the issue? Articulating the issue in a very succinct way is about nine-tenths of the problem. “Here’s what I think the issue is, Tom.” And notice when you win, the rest … You don’t tend to share, or celebrate with the team. You tend to be isolated. And, in many ways, detached from the rest of us, or whatever. Something like that. But you want to get as specific as you can.
(13:54):
And then, and I’ll write it down, and I’ll work it a few times, and I put them through ChatGPT to get that thing really clear, because if you can get that statement clear, it lets the person know what you want to talk about too.
(14:08):
I want to provide some [inaudible 00:14:10] actually. I want to provide … So, you want to know what you want to get on the outcome, you want to be able to state the problem, and then you want to give them an example of what the problem looks like to you. When you blah, blah, blah, “Remember the other day when you blah, blah, blah and this and all that?”
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]”This is what it looks like when this happens,” and you tell them that, then number four is, “When this happens, this is what happens for me. This is what I see happening for the team. This is what goes on.” Right?
(14:42):
And my point to him, to the person might be … I’m really open-handed. I’m exploring this, because it is a concern of mine, I’m open to the fact that I may not have it clear, but I do want to communicate clearly what I see it is, and I’m not going to just get off it, because I’m afraid of losing you, but I want to get clearer.
(15:04):
Now if I see there’s something I can learn in there, I’m going to move, but this opens it up. Right? So, “This is what I think is going to happen.” Right? And coming down the road. And then, “This is what I experience when I see it.”
(15:17):
And then the next one is, “Here’s how I’ve contributed to this problem. Here’s what I see I have been doing that’s actually contributed to the breakdown.” So, that they get … “And that’s why I’m having this conversation. One of the things maybe I haven’t been doing is talking to you about what’s going on in my head about what is wanted and needed to really have this go to the next level, have our team go to the next level,” or whatever, accomplish this, or have this to stop happening, whatever that is.
(15:50):
And then when I show them, I can say, “Look, here’s what I’m committed to. I’m committed to,” blah, blah, blah, “You working well with the team, you being able to resource the team, the team being able to learn from you, you elevating yourself, not only as a performer, but as a leader,” et cetera, et cetera.
(16:09):
And that doesn’t mean you have to do anymore, it just means that you’re thinking about your impact on the team. Something like that. “And here’s how I’m committed to you. I’m committed to learning from this as well as exploring it with you. So, I can learn, but also so you can learn, and the team can learn how to bring this about,” whatever. Right?
(16:28):
So, I prepare all of that before I go into the conversation, because the conversation is going to be more dynamic than that list, but that list helps me, A, stop being reactive, B, listen and learn, C, have a truing mechanism to come back to the conversation, if it goes off on some rabbit trail, and I’m out here, and I want to come over, this is why we’re talking. Right?
(16:54):
So, it gives me a lot of context to stay in. So, I’m not as reactive. I can be much more supportive of the person there, and I can be clear about what’s next. That opens up a ton, a ton of resource.
Dr. Tom DuFore (17:07):
Thinking about it as you’re describing this, when would you look to have these conversations? Is this a quarterly review? An annual review? What kind of cadence do you look at for these kinds of things?
Dan Tocchini (17:19):
Whenever they come up. So, I don’t just stop business, but if I see something, I want to catch … Some of the biggest mistakes I’ve made is seeing something early, and then letting it fester, and then I have much more to deal with two, three weeks down the road. If I see something, I’m going to start preparing to have the conversation, I’m going to watch, and I’m going to gather information, because I don’t want to … A, I’m not trying to “gotcha”, I’m not trying to get them.
(17:51):
But I do want to give them something concrete from my experience that they can look at, put their hands on, I, too, can, and we can explore, because there’s always more than I can see. I want to be curious about it. At the same time, I want to be authentic about what’s really going on, and the concern I have about the ultimate goal and mission of what we’re up to.
(18:14):
So, those are things that … And I’m communicating that with them. I’m creating a narrative, a context, a story, if you will, that they can join with me shoulder-to-shoulder.
(18:27):
What I’m really committed to is I’m working not to get polarized, I want to be shoulder-to-shoulder, and then if it gets to be where they’re obstinate, or there’s some … Well, that’s okay. I missed it somewhere down the road, that’s usually a price I pay down the road.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]The earlier you can get to a breakdown, the more cooperative people tend to be, the more they get entrenched, your tacit consent is what’s received in your silence. If I’m silent, and I don’t say anything about something that’s really starting to gnaw at me, I’m actually agreeing with what’s going on tacitly. And they’re going to feel betrayed, if they get down the road, and then all of a sudden, I hit them with a cement bag of upset, smack, and they’re going, “Well, why didn’t you say something earlier? What’s this about?” Right? And that adds a whole new layer to the breakdown.
Dr. Tom DuFore (19:18):
As you’re explaining this, and I’m thinking about it, it makes me think about, “Okay. Well, a lot of this gets to creating a culture of these kinds of conversations.”
(19:27):
So, I’d love for you to just maybe talk through not just the individual leader, or business owner making these changes, but actually creating a culture. What are some of the reasons why this type of culture maybe doesn’t change, or has a challenge in doing that?
Dan Tocchini (19:42):
That’s one of our biggest our work is … In fact, I used to have a consultancy called Culture ROI, because that does … It’s really a cultural stand where when I’m onboarding people, et cetera, I’m having these kinds of conversations, and then I’m following up like that with my team, and my team is doing it.
(20:01):
And I’ve just found that when people can … There’s a certain sacred nature to leadership. I investigate that with people, because, one, if you’re going to lead, you’re going to impact people’s lives. Two, it’s sacred, because it’s service to others. You’re willing to serve others, something bigger than yourself, because you get that inherent, intrinsic value of standing with people that way.
(20:25):
Two, it’s a perpetual aligning of yourself and others with the purpose and mission of what you’re up to. And it’s listening to them, because often they’ll contribute to the narrative in very powerful ways.
(20:37):
Or if they have some upset, you may learn ways to articulate what you’re up to in new frameworks, and in new … You may learn something that can help you reach more people on your team. It requires an authentic connection, because you’ve got to really care about what you’re doing, and you’ve got to be … It’s deeply relational, because you realize, A, that you’re impacting people. They’re spending a third to 40% of their life with you and the team. So, this is an opportunity to really let them know how much you appreciate them, by the willingness to have these kinds of conversations.
(21:16):
And then you take a responsibility for the legacy of your business on top of it for what’s going … Like, if I do this an ongoing basis, and the organization is steeped in it, then when I step back, people take hold, or if I need time off, or whatever, they’re going to be congruent, and they’ll be self-managing, and they’ll be able to resolve issues, they’ll be able to decentralize power to a greater degree, et cetera.
(21:43):
And, for me, it’s a moral, or ethical compass, because I want to be treated that way, I want to be … Nobody wants to be a widget, or a tool in a shop. Right? You want to be a contributor.
(21:57):
And there’s a lot of innovation in the team that you never even thought of. At least, I’ve discovered that. And, to me, that’s a force multiplier in my business and the experience of value and meaning in my work.
Dr. Tom DuFore (22:11):
If someone’s tuning in and saying, “Boy, I really like what Dan’s been saying. This is interesting. I’d like to get in touch with him,” how can someone find out a little bit more about what you’re doing, or connect with you?
Dan Tocchini (22:20):
The best way is to go to www.TakeNewGround.com. That’s my website. You can reach out to us there, or you can reach me on LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn, Dan Tocchini. Those are probably the two easiest ways to get a hold of me.
Dr. Tom DuFore (22:34):
Thank you. Well, Dan, this is a great time in the show. We ask every guest the same four questions before they go, and the first question we ask is, “Have you had a miss, or two on your journey?” And something you learned from it.
Dan Tocchini (22:45):
Oh, man. More than a miss, or two. One of the things I learned a long time ago is I can’t do this alone. I’m a pretty hard-charging, A type personality. I’ve always been good at whatever I do. I was an All-American football player, and baseball, basketball. It seems like whatever I put my mind to, I tend to do well.
(23:08):
And at a young age, I think to in my mid-thirties, maybe early forties even, if something wasn’t getting done, I’d just pick it up and do it.
(23:17):
And I started feeling pretty alone, because people, really strong people, people who could really be a resource and a benefit in my life, in my development started leaving.
(23:32):
And I spent some time really looking at that, and getting feedback. And I realized the time … I’m really good at attracting a team, but then I would just … I’d use them, and they’d turn into tools. And that was because I saw myself as a tool often. Like, my identity was in my competency. And as I went along, I started realizing there was a lot more to me, a lot more to the people that I was working with, and a lot more available in the mission that we were working to solve together.
(24:05):
So, that’s a big deal for me. And I can tell you, there’s one specific time, I had this guy on my team, he was a big producer, and I got into an argument with him. We were in Hawaii, [inaudible 00:24:20] there’s a sandbar out there. I think it was up [inaudible 00:24:22], and the water goes over it, and comes down. We’re playing out there with jet skis and so on.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And we’re talking, we’re standing talking in the sun, and he wore a hairpiece. And I just noticed it, and I said, “Oh, you wear a hairpiece?” And he got really mad at me. And I said, “What’s up? Why are you so mad? I’m your friend.” “Don’t ever mention that again. Don’t ever mention that again.”
(24:40):
I didn’t think anything of it. [inaudible 00:24:43], eventually, and this guy was pretty much an isolated … He was, kind of, a rockstar, some of the team was complaining. The thing I described about the golden child, I went through that, I did that.
(24:57):
And eventually, it ended up he ended up, A, committing adultery with his wife with somebody on the team, it broke the team up, all of this. And I realized in debriefing it that if I had just had the conversation about the hairpiece back then, I would have touched … Even though, he was upset, I needed to … Like, “Wow. What’s up?” Like, “What are you concerned about?”
(25:22):
And then when the team came to me about certain things about how he was treating them rather than going, and sitting down, and really understanding what was going on there, which I would have found out a lot, I ended up paying the penalties and interest some years later when this whole thing blew up, and really tore the fabric of the company. Really, it was a painful experience.
Dr. Tom DuFore (25:46):
Well, thank you for sharing that, Dan. And let’s talk about on the other side, a make, or a highlight to share.
Dan Tocchini (25:52):
Well, yeah. Absolutely. The team I have now is probably the best experience I’ve had in my life. I made a principle, “I’m not going to work with somebody that I don’t get, I can stand with.” Like, I don’t [inaudible 00:26:06]. And I’m very careful about that.
(26:09):
And my partner Adrian is a phenomenal guy, David Cox, you’ll see them on the website, another guy named Mark Edwards. These guys have been very successful in their domains, and very successful. Mark ran a $10 billion tech firm. David was 14 years at McKinsey and Company, and then a number of tech firms himself. Adrian as well. He’s coached some great CEOs.
(26:37):
And we built a team where we can talk to each other. And one of the big wins … A few years back, we got this very talented guy on the team. One of my partners brought him on, and thought he’d be great. I thought he’d be great. Very talented, sharp, good-looking, articulate, et cetera.
(26:58):
And one day, I’m sitting with him and he says to me, “You and I have a special connection that none of these other guys have with you.” And, immediately, I went, “Well, now why would he say that?” Right?
(27:12):
So, I noted that, I asked him, I said, “Why would you say that?” And he said, “Say what?” I said, “That we have a special connection that other people …” “Well, we do.” I said, “Okay. Good. Tell me how that is for you.” “Oh, you’ve been through this, and I’ve been through that, and both of us have, but I don’t think these other guys have.” I said, “Yes, but what are you signifying in that?” And he got really uncomfortable. He glossed it over. And I said, “Well, you should think about it. Let’s talk about it.”
(27:36):
And about two weeks later, he’s on the phone arguing with a guy who brought him in. And the argument was very interesting, because it was about how he didn’t like the way he looked when my partner addressed something with him in private, and he was worried that my partner was going to do that on the team. Like, he might expose him.
(27:59):
And so, my partner … I heard hm talking, and I asked if I could join the conversation, and he said, “Yeah.” And we started to delve into it, and it got really clear. And at the end of the probably two, or three days of talking about this upset that shouldn’t have been that big of a deal, I realized, “This guy is not going to work on this team.”
(28:18):
And when we handled that, we all went, “Okay. What can we learn from this? The good news is we got this early.” And we let the guy go, and it was amicable. He got it. He saw the discomfort for himself.
(28:31):
It was amazing, because I noticed that our production, our business jumped all of a sudden, all the partners are producing like they never did. We all chuckled at one of the partner meetings about, “Wow. Once we did this, this thing just took off the immediate quarter thereafter.”
(28:53):
And we’re talking seven figure movement. So, it’s a big win.
Dr. Tom DuFore (28:59):
Wow. Thanks for sharing that. Let’s talk about a multiplier, the name of the show is Multiply Your Success, that you’ve used to multiply either yourself personally, professionally, or organizations you’ve run.
Dan Tocchini (29:10):
Well, the big multiplier effect for me is breaking down silos. I don’t see my personal life distinct from … I don’t see it as, “I go home and then I’m Dan, the father, grandfather, husband, and Dan, the CEO, or partner at work, or Dan the consultant at a client.”
(29:31):
I am Dan, and I don’t have a problem … My partners know my family, I know all their families. When my grandson died a couple of years ago, the support I got from my partners was amazing. They knew my family. When they came, they were part … It was very powerful, very meaningful for me.
(29:58):
And when my partners have problems, it’s the same way. We’re able to share them, time off, no problem. I was gone for two months, and nothing … Didn’t miss a beat. They took care of me. It was amazing. I got off the plane, and one of my partners gave us a car, and we weren’t even anticipating that, and I have another partner who rented an Airbnb for my family to spend a month together with my son and his family. So, we could mourn through the issues, and they would send me reports of what’s going on. It just was really …
(30:30):
My wife was moved as well, and she’s part of the team. But you don’t realize the value of that until it hits you. And a lot of that comes from de-siloeing. If I’m having an issue in my personal life, I can talk about it. If I’m having an issue in my business life, I can go to my family and get time to do it. Right?
(30:51):
It’s, like, an integration, not a work/life balance. It’s an integrated work/life. And that’s a force multiplier for me, I focus on that.
Dr. Tom DuFore (31:00):
Dan, the final question we ask every guest is, “What does success mean to you?”
Dan Tocchini (31:04):
Well, I think I just described it, but, first, faith, family, community. Those are the three things that in my life are important, and health. I take care of myself. I love making a difference in my community. I love making a difference with my family, and with my partners.
(31:24):
So, those are the things … To me, success is the ability to do that, to commit to something bigger than myself, and to experience the meaning in it. It makes the tough times worth it. It sustains me when you’re in a valley, and life isn’t the way you want it to be, and it’s difficult.
(31:47):
It makes it worth getting out of bed, because I’ve got that connection.
Dr. Tom DuFore (31:51):
Wonderful. Well, as we bring this to a close, Dan, is there anything you were hoping to share, or get across that you haven’t had a chance to yet?
Dan Tocchini (31:59):
I say it myself, it’s something I meditate on at times when I’m down, keep kicking at the indifference until it bleeds life is what comes up in my mind. Like, if this isn’t working, don’t run away from it. What can I learn from it? What’s going on here that I’m not paying attention to that I need to?
(32:21):
And not to give up on it unless … It’ll tell you. Doors will shut. When they do, you can move on, but I’m a strong believer in completion. Like, stay with something … Like, it’s not happening to me, it’s happening for me.
(32:39):
So, it’s that kind of bumper sticker, but it means a lot to me. It’s a bumper sticker, “It’s not happening to me, it’s happening for me.” But that’s really what has occurred to me.
(32:50):
Like, for instance, I talked about the loss of my grandson. Deeply painful, very valuable for my family, deeply bonded me with my friends and family and business partners. And if I would have run from it, or hid, or alienated people, it just wouldn’t have been a wonderful life. It wouldn’t have been worth it.
Dr. Tom DuFore (33:14):
Dan, thank you so much for a fantastic interview. And let’s go ahead and jump into today’s three key takeaways. So, takeaway number one is when Dan talked about what you do with the complaints that you might have, or hear.
(33:27):
And he said, “The quicker you catch it, the better.” And he said, “Here are a couple things to ask yourself. What do I get from this complaint?” And to notice your behavior when the complaint comes through.
(33:38):
And as a manager, if you don’t talk to the team member about it, that becomes a problem, which leads us to takeaway number two, which is how as a leader you can have that difficult conversation.
(33:50):
And so, he gave us a framework, or an outline to follow. I thought this outline was fantastic. Step one is to decide what do you ultimately want out of the conversation? What is the big win and what does it look like?
(34:05):
Number two is state the problem. What’s that issue? Articulate the issue to the other person. Number three, tell them what the problem looks like to you. Number four, when this problem happens, this is what happens to me, and you describe what happens there. Number five, “Here’s how I’ve contributed to the problem.” So, you’re taking some ownership, or some responsibility there, that it’s not entirely that person’s fault. Number six, “Here is what I’m going to do about it, and what I am committed to doing.”
(34:35):
And the final piece here is to prepare this list before you actually go into the meeting. I thought that was a great little nugget and takeaway.
(34:43):
Takeaway number three is when he described leadership having a sacred nature. And he said, “It helps you to think of it in this way, and think about it,” and he gave a few points here about it. Why he thinks there’s a sacred nature to leadership, he said, “You’re leading people and you’re impacting their lives. You’re serving others. You’re able to perpetually align your staff and team with your company vision, and purpose. And it’s deeply relational, and you’re taking responsibility as the leader for the legacy of your business.” I thought that was a great little nugget.
(35:18):
And now it’s time for today’s win-win. So, today’s win-win is when Dan was talking about these difficult conversations, and when is the right time to have these difficult conversations? When do you do it?
(35:36):
And the win-win is that he said, “You do this as soon as you can. It’s easier to do it sooner rather than later. The longer you wait, the harder it becomes, and the bigger the problem often becomes.”
(35:50):
And so, the speed to looking to address this, and following that outline is likely going to be a big win for you, and for your employee, your staff, your team members, those others that need to have that difficult conversation. And as Dan had shared, he failed to have that difficult conversation with one of his key people, and he felt that had he had that difficult conversation at the time in that moment when it happened, it may have prevented a series of unfortunate events that happened several years down the line.
(36:23):
And so, that’s the episode today, folks. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast and give us a review. And remember, if you, or anyone you know might be ready to franchise your business, or take their franchise company to the next level, please connect with us at www.BigSkyFranchiseTeam.com.
(36:36):
Thanks for tuning in, and we look forward to having you back next week.
